Yr02, Ep18 :: Erin Kendig on Making Space to Work

Erin Kendig

by This is Design School

On this episode, Erin Kendig, a practicing fine artist and Managing Editor of ARCADE Magazine, talks about making space to work, ditching the five-year plan, and figuring out how you want to spend your time.


CHAD:

Erin Kendig, thank you for being on the show with us today. We’re really excited to have you. We wanted to start the conversation off by asking, what are you doing these days?

ERIN:

First off, thank you for having me. This is an exciting opportunity. I work as the managing editor of ARCADE, which is a Seattle-based non-profit that publishes a magazine about design and the built environment. We also put on lectures and community events. In addition to working at ARCADE, I also have my own private art practice; I’m a fine artist. Actually, this month marks my 10 year anniversary at ARCADE.

JP:

Congratulations.

CHAD:

Really? Wow, I didn’t realize it was that long. Is that on LinkedIn?

ERIN:

Yeah, thanks! Uhh, I think so, maybe. I’m not a huge LinkedIn user. But, it might be. I started working at ARCADE my senior year at the University of Washington. I have worked there either in a part-time or a full-time capacity for the last 10 years. So, it’s been really fun. It’s fun to be able to come on and talk a little bit about what I do there and what we do there.

Right now, my current role there is Managing Editor. We have a very small staff of three who are in the office. I work with our Executive Director and Editor Kelly Rodriguez to produce the editorial content. Our writers are members of the community and they contribute voluntarily to the magazine. Kelly does the initial stages of developing the content with the writers; taking pitches and reaching out to people. Also, we’ll work with a guest editor who comes in and helps curate our feature section for each issue, for the most part—sometimes ARCADE does that.

And, once that initial work is done, I work with the writers to further develop and refine their pieces for publication. I also manage our advertising and help with some other organizational activities around marketing, outreach and fundraising. Because we’re such a small staff we all kind of help out with a lot of different stuff. And, we work with a volunteer board and different committees. We have a volunteer editorial committee, which helps us develop the editorial direction that we’ll take for the year. It’s very much a labor of love. We have a new graphic designer that comes in every volume, too [and many volunteers who help with things from proofreading to events and more].

JP:

And, what kind of artwork do you do?

ERIN:

My artwork… I work on paper—small to medium size works on paper. I use mostly water color, some ink and Gouache in my latest series that I’m working on.

My art, the subject matter is inspired by the Northwest landscape and plant life. I’m very inspired and, I think, influenced by landscape traditions. But, also by different forms of narrative storytelling and illustrative traditions as well. So, while these paintings are depicting the landscape, they’re also made to be the characters as well and very slightly anthropomorphized and put in a role where they are the characters versus the back drop that an animal or a human is acting against. They have a very graphic or illustrative feel to them. There are a lot of paintings of moss and trees and clouds and fogs and mushrooms. And, it’s all very stylized.

JP:

It’s very fascinating, if you don’t mind maybe we’ll link to it on our website.

ERIN:

Oh, yeah. Thank you I think that would be good.

JP:

So, you said you work part-time with ARCADE and you do this part-time. How is that balance? Have you found that balance? And, is that kind of an ebb and flow? I’m assuming ARCADE kind of has its height and stress season. And, then I’m sure there’s a lull to it.

ERIN:

Yes. And, I recently made this switch starting last fall—so, fall 2015. I’m still trying to figure out how that works a little bit. But yes, it’s definitely an ebb and flow based off of how ARCADE’s editorial deadlines work. I base my day-to-day schedule around what needs to be done at ARCADE. I’ve done it long enough that I have a good sense of what that is. And, similar to how graphic designers probably have a sense of when a project is maybe going well or maybe starting to go off the rails a little bit, in terms of time, you can start to reign that back and get a sense of how things are going. So, I keep an eye on that and I work my art practice in around that. For me, I’ve been finding that a good balance is I work a full work week during the week. I try to put in a good eight to ten hours a day either on ARCADE or on my art. And, I have a pretty good idea of what my schedule looks like that week and I fill it in.

So, it’s probably really similar to how anyone would manage a sort of creative or design studio. Looking at what deadlines are coming up, what do you think those projects are going to take in terms of time and then trying to fill in the gaps places. And, then I often end up working on the weekend as well.

But, it’s nice being more part-time at ARCADE. Before I was working full-time and then also working in my art practice around that, which was good and a lot of working artists do that. They work in the mornings or evenings and try and kind of balance it and try not to get totally burnt out. And, it was getting a little tiring. So, it’s much nicer getting to have more time that I can have to work on my art now.

CHAD:

What does your work space for art look like?

ERIN:

Um… (sighs) I work out of my small apartment that I share with my boyfriend who also works at home a lot. He’s a professor in the Philosophy department at UW and he prefers to write at home. We have a small one bedroom apartment, which he has very kindly agreed to let me have basically the bedroom room for my… because I work at home for ARCADE most of the time, too.

I kind of hole up in that room where I have my art stuff and usually do ARCADE work in there also. My work is small enough and tidy enough that I actually work in a small space on a desk that I’ve had since I was maybe ten years old. Maybe someday I’ll, you know, upgrade to an actual…

JP:

…Get some big kid furniture.

ERIN:

Yeah. I’ll get some big kid furniture. So, I work in that room and the he’s usually working in the other room. And, we’ve outfitted, it’s a relatively large room, we’ve kind of divided it up with some furniture where the bed is and then there’s the living area. It’s pretty small, but I prefer working from home because it’s just easier to pick it up and work whenever. If I have some down time I can work for a couple of hours and then switch to something else.

Maybe someday it would be nice to have a studio that’s away from the home and everything. I’ve been definitely feeling a little bit of cabin fever because I have my art practice at home and I work from home when I do my ARCADE work a lot, and I’m just kind of an introverted homebody anyway. So, now I’m kind of feeling that maybe I need to get out of the apartment a little bit more.

JP:

(laughs) Do you find that you can stay being inspired by being in the same environment for both this editorial work as well as this creative practice work?

ERIN:

Yeah. You know, I’ve heard a lot of things where people, you know, the suggestion of, whether it be sleeping or working on different types of things, having dedicated spaces for the different activities in your life. Having them pretty close together space-wise. I haven’t found it to be a big problem. I do have that desk, the little one I’ve had since I was ten, that is sort of the art desk. And, then I usually work in a chair totally hunched over my laptop. Or, I’ve tried to kind of create this at-home standing desk situation, which is me perching my laptop on top of my dresser to avoid the bad posture situation. And then, sometime I go work in the other room on the couch.

ARCADE is so inspirational. I enjoy the work so much I don’t find it to be a hinderance in any way; same with the art practice, I think. In some way it puts me in a good mood to work on ARCADE stuff.

Have you guys worked in… You’ve probably worked in design studios where you have people working with you all of the time. And, I’ve been in that environment, too. I guess there’s different ways to, if you need to feel a little bit alone, you can put headphones on or earplugs. I’m a big earplugs enthusiast because I like sensory deprivation or something. It helps me focus. But, you can do those things and then it’s nice to be around people.

JP:

I’ve been lucky enough to have had my own office in places that I’ve worked. So, closing the door and creating my own little sound environment or mood environment has always been something that I’ve grown accustomed too, but also something that I’ve needed. It wasn’t until maybe grad school where we had this open studio space, something similar to the UW, where I was like, “Oh, I have to be in communication with other people and they want to talk about their projects.” It took a while and I did grow to enjoy it. And, that’s part of the reason why I became a professor myself was I enjoyed that critique, that conversation about that work in progress, as opposed to just at the end please tell me how great I did. Praise, praise, praise, and then go away and I’ll do my own work again.

“When I was in design school… we had an open studio format and we had our own desk and computer and space. You could go home and work if you wanted, but it was nice to stay late and be with your peers because you were more in it together.”

 

ERIN:

Yeah, that’s really nice to be in an environment like that. And, it’s really motivating, too. Because it’s nice to be by yourself, but it’s also nice to reconnect with other people and get feedback. And, then there’s always something a little bit, not depressing but maybe depressing, when you’re working really late at night by yourself and having fun. And, particularly in school. When I was in design school it was really nice to have, we had an open studio format and we had our own desk and computer and space. You could go home and work if you wanted, but it was nice to kind of stay late and be with your peers because you were more in it together.

I actually, depending on the work I’m doing, really enjoy going into the office. We have office space down at Methun. Methun is an architecture and urban design landscape firm. And, it’s just kind of nice to be around people. I guess it depends on what part of the stage of the creative process, or maybe a little bit of everything is good.

JP:

And Chad, we’ve always talked about how much you’re a, I’m going to put that in quotes, a “people person.”

CHAD:

Are you being sarcastic?

JP:

(laughs) If that isn’t translated through the radio, then yes.

CHAD:

Oh, I’m a people person.

JP:

Yeah, but I feel like you like to design on your own.

CHAD:

Well, I’m very introverted.

JP:

Yeah.

CHAD:

But, actually this process of going through my thesis and working by myself for a year has been extremely challenging.

JP:

Really?

CHAD:

Yes.

JP:

I would kind of think that would be up your alley.

CHAD:

Yeah. Well I mean, it’s just a long time. (laughs) It’s kind of nice, as we’ve been talking about, to have this back-and-forth and communication and to feel like you’re in it with other people. And, you lose a sense of that, a little bit. It’s one thing to be working on your own but still be working with other people. And, similar to how you’re talking about ARCADE, you can work independently, but sometimes it’s nice to be able to go back and there are these other people who are also working on these pieces of it.

ERIN:

Yeah. I would even say that’s part of ARCADE as an organization in a sense. One of the things we try to do is… Because I think another thing that can kind of happen when you’re working on a project, whether it’s your own project or your firms project or whatever, you can become kind of isolated within your work group. One thing that I have found in school is there’s a real sense of camaraderie. One thing that ARCADE tries to do through events and the magazine is to create connections with design community. So, you can connect with your peers and have that, you know, “We’re kind of all in it together” type of thing. Because it can just be really easy for everyone to get so busy and so stuck working on just what you’re working on. You need to come up for air sometimes and reconnect with the creatives around you.

“…It can just be really easy for everyone to get so busy and so stuck working on just what you’re working on. You need to come up for air sometimes and reconnect with the creatives around you.”

 

CHAD:

Well, that’s one thing I wanted to talk a little bit about, the whole idea and concept of ARCADE. This idea of writing around design, which most people don’t associate writing with design. And, I was curious as most of the content comes from contributors, how does that process work? And, especially as you tend to be the person who works with them to refine that. What does that process look like?

ERIN:

It really varies a lot. So, many of our contributors are design practitioners or people who work with other design fields closely; engineers would be a common one. And then, we also have a lot of people who have professional writing experience—journalists and academics—also have more professional writing experience. But, academic writing is different from popular writing, I’ve found.

CHAD:

Yes. (laughs)

ERIN:

Yes. So, it really varies because people come to the table with different experiences. All of the pieces vary a lot, too; the type of content we explore. Some of them, most of them I would describe as thought pieces. But, we also have some that have more of a personal story aspect to it. Or, maybe some of them are more about arguing a certain point of view. Some of them are more descriptive and sharing facts.

We really work to try and preserve each writers voice. As an editor it’s really about working with the writer and trying to help them tell the best version of the story they’re trying to tell. Depending on how the piece comes in, the advice, suggestions and edits I would provide would be different for each one. Designers are great to work with. I think the editing process is not the same as critique, but it’s not totally different either. In critique you’re trying to understand what someone is trying to do and then assessing whether that’s happening or not, in a way, and then give your feedback. And, they are free to take your feedback, counter, or not. As an editor, there’s another thing that you would be doing, is keeping in mind the publication’s audience and how that reader might interpret what is being said. So, that’s an interesting thing. But, I also think really similar to design because you’re always having to be empathetic in terms of understanding how a user would encounter something. It’s very similar to the state of mind you would be end when you think of how a reader would encounter something.

It’s really rewarding because I’ve gotten to work with a lot of different people. Once a piece gets to me, we usually have at least a couple of rounds of back and forth. Maybe more, maybe less depending on how long the piece is and what it’s trying to say. That sort of thing. It’s pretty collaborative. I wonder whether people always understand how collaborative the writing process is. I assume it’s like that everywhere, but it’s definitely like that at ARCADE. And, I’ve heard from other people, it seems like it’s pretty common that a lot of people will be reviewing your writing and there will be a lot of stages to your writing process. That’s just… That’s normal.

“I think the editing process is not the same as critique, but it’s not totally different either… you’re always having to be empathetic in terms of understanding how a user would encounter something. It’s very similar to the state of mind you would be end when you think of how a reader would encounter something.”

 

JP:

Erin, I find that what you were just saying reminds me a bit about what we talk about in class for the seniors who are getting ready to graduate; about a balancing act, or how to have that critical discourse that is outside of the classroom. Have you found that is something other artists or designer’s you’ve worked with is something they have engrained in them? Or, is it something that is kind of trained by working with ARCADE?

ERIN:

It varies. It seems like some designers are… Well, I guess if you’re already writing for ARCADE, you’re sort of interested in having that critical discourse. People either come to us with ideas or we’ll approach people we’d like to hear from. So, if you agree to do it, you’re probably pretty interested in that. But, I don’t know. It kind of seems to vary. I think it’s really great to participate in this kind of discourse.

I think designers are very visual thinkers, obviously, but so many of our ideas are already transferred through writing. Writing is about idea sharing. And when these ideas are shared it helps everyone in the community to grow. You get access to new perspectives and knowledge. So, if you have a really interesting design practice, it’s good to share that. And, if you’re a good writer, that’s just another way to get your ideas out there.

I also think that the writing process can be a unique and helpful experience in terms of getting clarity about what you think about what your design and what you want to be doing. There’s something special that happens when you have to put down in writing in an articulate and clear way what you’re trying to think. Especially when it might be a big picture kind of idea. You know, there’s this saying that a picture is worth a thousand words, well like, what order do those words go in? You know? Because I think when designers, and when people are engaging in the design process, it’s definitely very analytical but it’s also maybe a little bit more holistic in how you’re thinking about how things are all fitting together. And, writing is more linear. Thinking about how you articulate all of those complex ideas that might be rolling around in your head, and getting them out there in a way that’s going to be pleasing to read about and clear so other people can engage in them. I think…

“There’s this saying that a picture is worth a thousand words. Well, what order do those words go in?”

 

I think there’s other ways that we do that. I think podcasts, like this, are a great way. And, events, lectures, and being face-to-face with someone is probably the most valuable place. But, I think there’s something very unique and special about writing, both producing writing and sitting with someone else writing and contemplating it and analyzing it. So, before I started working at ARCADE, I was an English major as an undergraduate. Basically I just read books, analyzed them all of the time and wrote papers about them. That was why I became involved in ARCADE to begin with, and then became more interested in design. I’d always been interested in art, but… So, yeah. I’m very pro-writing and about sharing your ideas in that way.

What about you guys. Have you written much? How does that work into your practices and your work as an educator? And, you’re writing, or you’re working on a thesis? It sounds like perhaps there is a written component? What’s that like?

CHAD:

Yeah. My undergraduate degree was in Communication. So, I had a pretty solid foundation of communication writing. But then, as I kind of shifted more into design, I was still writing a lot, but less and less. Then, when I came back to grad school, writing is a large component of that. And, even in design school you’re doing a lot of making, but you’re also doing a lot of writing and reading in junction with that. And, now that I’m moving on to my thesis I’ve gone through this period where I’ve been writing less, but I know there’s this writing coming up. After we’ve completed our project, we put together all of our documentation and all of that. Then we have to re-explain… So, we have the writing at the beginning with the proposal, then you do you project, then at the end you have write and tie it all together and hope that from the beginning to the end it fits back together well.

ALL:

(laugh)

CHAD:

So, I think for me, writing, as you just said, is a really great way to clarify your ideas in a linear and logical way that visually we usually don’t do.

How about you, Jp?

JP:

There’s a phrase that I like from a book that I read when I was in grad school called, Education of a Graphic Designer, I think it was called. And, there’s an article in there about design as author. And, I really like that idea of a designer being an author or having authorship over what they do and what they write about. I’ve really tried to instill that into my students; not that you have to write articles or books about things, but you have to consider yourself a researcher and consider yourself thoughtful and critical about what you design.

Book-wise or article-wise, I’ve written things over the years, probably starting with when I was in grad school where I become much more connected to it all. And, the older I get the more I’m gravitating to less of a career or practice in design and more into the criticism or exploration of that. So, I can see myself in the next couple of years writing something a little bit larger. Maybe that will be part of my next sabbatical.

Does that feel like a twilight thing? Am I getting older? Are you two looking at me like, “Oh, he’s going to write his memoirs?”

CHAD:

We’re all getting older, Jp.

ERIN:

Yeah, I… 10 years at ARCADE. That means 10 years out of college, too. That was a whole other thing that marked this year. It seems like so long ago, but not a long time ago.

JP:

To me that means that you have had many different roles in both ARCADE, but also in your career.

ERIN:

Yeah. I had a very wandering… Well, I don’t know if that’s fair to say. I explored many options when I was in my twenties because I didn’t go to college with a profession in mind that I would explore afterwards. I knew I was interested in Art and I really loved reading and writing. So, at one point I thought maybe I want to be a teacher. But, nope that is not something I wanted. Well, not right now. At one point I thought I might want to be a high school teacher. But, then I decided that was probably not for me at this moment. Then, I had some different jobs that were more closely… experiences that were more closely aligned with marketing. Then, I went back to design school for two years. And, all of the while trying to build my art practice and trying to figure out how that works because I don’t have a degree in Fine Arts. So, it’s been taking classes here and there and kind of figuring those things out for a little bit.

My path has not been a straight shot. And, you know, I could have never anticipated that I would have found and been working for a place like ARCADE when I went into college. I couldn’t have been like, “Oh, I’m going to college so I can work at an architecture and design magazine when I graduate.” It was a matter of luck and then noticing when interesting opportunities came my way and saying yes to the right things and no to the right things. I think when I was in my twenties that felt scary. When I graduated from school and I didn’t have my five-year plan that freaked me out a little bit. I don’t know if your design student listeners will appreciate that. Or, if people who are recently out of school. But, it ended up being good and it turns out that is just how life works. You just can’t predict everything.

“When I graduated from school and I didn’t have my five-year plan that freaked me out a little bit… It was a matter of luck and then noticing when interesting opportunities came my way and saying yes to the right things and no to the right things… It turns out that is just how life works. You just can’t predict everything.”

 

JP:

So, do you have a five-year plan now?

ERIN:

Umm, no not really. I don’t know if I’m really a five-year plan type of person. I have some… for me a better way of thinking about it is, what are the types of things I want to be spending my time on and looking maybe a couple of years out about how I want to structure my time. And, once you get clear about how you want to be spending your time it makes it easier to say yes and no to different opportunities that come your way.

I think also as you get older and build your network, more and more opportunities are presented to you. It’s good to know which ones to say yes and no to. And, as you get older you probably have more of a sense. Like you, Jp, you have an idea that you want to be doing more criticism, and because you know that you can say yes to criticism opportunities that come your way and no to more design opportunities because you know what you want. But, you might not necessarily have a step-by-step plan. Or, maybe you do, I don’t know.

Do you guys have five-year plans?

JP:

Well, I happen to have it my pocket.

ERIN:

Oh! (laughs)

JP:

No, I do not have a five-year plan. I have a weekend plan.

ERIN:

What about you? What’s your five-year plan?

CHAD:

Oh man. Well, I’m wrapping up my last five-year plan.

ALL:

(laugh)

ERIN:

Yeah.

CHAD:

So, I’m trying to figure out my next five-year plan. Which is actually weird, because we talk about five-year plans and stuff like that, but… I was actually going through some old stuff and getting rid of a bunch of old stuff and, I’ll mention Marie Kondo’s name, I did the KonMari Method on my room. She’s like the tidying up and only keeping things that bring you joy…

ERIN:

Things that you love and everything…

JP:

But, you have to thank you for its service.

CHAD:

And, you thank it for its service and pass it along.

Anyway, so recently I got rid of a lot of stuff. And, some of that stuff was some old things from undergrad and I found things in there that were referencing wanting to go to grad school for design already. And, in hindsight I didn’t realize I was thinking about those things then. And, it was like, “Oh, I was kind of making this five-year plan.” And, you know, I did some stuff along the way that I didn’t, like, it was a little open. But, I actually kind of stuck to it pretty well.

So, now I’m trying to figure out what that next five-year plan is and figure out how I can make it happen without realizing I’m making it happen.

ERIN:

Yeah. I’ve found a sort of similar effect looking back to things I like as a kid. More and more I’m doing them now. It just took a really long time to get to that kind of full-circle spot.

CHAD:

And, in hindsight I’m just like, “How was I not more conscious of that all along?” Why didn’t I just say yes and do it? But, sometimes you got to do it the hard way and figure it out.

JP:

Yeah. What was it that were talking about a couple of months ago? The long, hard, stupid way?

CHAD:

Yeah. Frank Chimero, The Long, Hard, Stupid Way.

JP:

I mentioned that to my students a couple of days ago on a lecture about creativity. I was thinking about you then.

ERIN:

Yeah. I think also I think it can be good to, if you’re not sure what you want to do, to pick a direction and just go for it. I feel like that’s a lesson sort of working as a designer. If you were really indecisive, it’s really hard to be a designer because you’re constantly making decisions. And, maybe there is not a perfect option, but at some point you have to pick the one that is sort of okay or the best and go for it. And, then you learn along the process what the next decision is. So, at some point you don’t have your life perfectly mapped out, but have a sense of what you want to do now and then maybe a vague sense of where that might go in the future.

At least, that’s a little bit more of how I tend to operate. Otherwise I have like an existential crisis, mired in doubt in the tyranny of choices before me, and yeah…

“If you are really indecisive, it’s really hard to be a designer because you’re constantly making decisions. And, maybe there is not a perfect option, but at some point you have to pick the one that is sort of okay or the best and go for it. And, then you learn along the process what the next decision is.”

 

JP:

I like that comment you just made that designers can’t have indecisiveness because they’re constantly making decisions all of the time. I find that students, a lot of time, are in the mindset of, “There’s so much that I have to do it is debilitating to do it.” Do you ever find that still?

ERIN:

Definitely there have been… So, the workflow at ARCADE is pretty intense and there’s a lot of different things to juggle, especially when I was there more full-time. Yeah, it can be really overwhelming to have a really giant to-do list. I think that it is definitely important to take things one step at a time.

I think in general something that is important is finding how you work best, what your weaknesses are and what your strengths are and kind of exploiting those in a lot of different areas—kind of knowing yourself. This may be just the answer to many of these questions, which is a very hard thing to do—knowing yourself, it turns out… But, yeah. It is. It can be hard to make decisions when you have a lot before you and feel overwhelmed.

JP:

Yup.

CHAD:

Know thyself.

JP:

Know thyself. Oh, I like that one.

ERIN:

So, doing this podcast, how do you see that relating to the process of writing and conversation. And, how has the experience of doing this podcast maybe influenced your practice and helped you grow?

CHAD:

That’s a good question. For me, part of it is I sit down and do the transcripts for these that we end up putting up on the site. So, going through that process, you realize how different the process of speech is from the process of writing.

ERIN:

Yes, I have also encountered that every time we edit an interview.

CHAD:

Yeah. So, for this I’ve stylistically made that choice to keep it true to the way people talk and not try to edit it down a lot. But, that was like a huge realization. And, then thinking how this impacts the work I do and things like that, I think for me its, I mean, I’ve talked many times about how talking to other people has kind of broadened this idea of all the roles design can play in the world, all of these different aspects of it and all of the different ways it can be done. And, yet all of it still falls under this giant umbrella of design. And, design criticism and design writing, all of that falls into that, too. But, often times in school we’re only exposed to a little piece of it. So, the bigger thing is trying to make that more well known and learning through that, I guess.

JP:

So, Chad does all of the transcribing, but I do all of the editing.

ERIN:

Oh yeah!

JP:

So, I get to listen to everyone over and over and over again, and make the small little edits and hear all of the fascinating details of the way that people speak or breathe.

CHAD:

(breathes heavily into the mic) Oh, sorry.

JP & ERIN:

(laugh)

JP:

Umm, the other thing I’ve found interesting is finding a pattern around the way people think about design.

I mean, it doesn’t have to be the same subject matter, but they are all thinking about it as part of who they are and not as a career they have to do. I think that has been very educational for me because I then translate that back into the classroom and talk to my students about making choices around lifestyle and how they need to be fulfilled and encouragement of getting through that hump of getting life to continue to happen after they’ve gotten that first pay check, after they have that blow up with the boss, or after they have this design project that just does not go very well. How do you survive these things and not give up in that moment?

I think that this podcast has been an integral part of that. It’s not just design school for the students, it’s been design school for me as well—learning how to teach design again. Or, how to revise design again. I’ve been doing this for 11 years, and 12 years if you include what I did at SAIC. And, oh my goodness things have changed quite a bit. Of expectations from the 90’s to the 2000’s, now to the teens. Who knows what it’s going to be like in the future?

I’m very excited and I’m also very curious. And, I think that curiosity has stemmed this podcast’s growth from here and hopefully it continues.

ERIN:

Nice.

JP:

Well Erin, thank you for stopping by and having a conversation with us. I had a great time.

ERIN:

Thank you for having me!

JP:

See you next time.

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